Monday 11 January 2010
Comment from Martin about T Gouw's teaching on end times..
don't have any "end times" teachings any more after He stripped away a literal 3 dimensional physical second coming from my theology 3 months ago as being Unbiblical and took me through Acts, Colossians, Zechariah, Isaiah, Malachi, 1Thessalonians, 2Thessalonians, Hebrews, 1John, and Revelation about it. However, I am anticipating the fulfillment of the entire book of Zechariah in my ministry;-) Now there's a heresy for you roflol Whole book is prosperity theology at it's finest, and an exit from Babylon is the Biblical equivalent of an exit from Egypt with the gold, silver, and apparel. When Lord Jesus preached that one to me on October 15th about the iniquity of the land and the spirit of uncleanness being removed from the land in one day and about all of the prosperity that was to flow like blood to the horse's bridle over the face of the whole land....
End Time Doctrine
There is still bags in the interview doc with Martin with regards to end time teachings. But I think T. Gouws's teachings on the matter helps to fill in those gaps. I include:
Seminar 14 Nov 09 Tom Gouws
"Falsehood has an infinity of combinations, but truth has only one mode of being" J.J. Rousseau
7 Principles we need to understand first before we go into the teachings of end times. These concepts needs to be understood as foundations.
1. End time is not in the time we live now. It started when Jesus rose up from the dead. This is proved by 1 Cor 10:11
See also Gen 49:1, Eseg 38:16
See also Heb 1:1
2. The word in Greek for coming is "ergomai". Somebody coming on the cloud.
But it can mean somebody coming or going.
Paulus went up (ergomai) to heaven.
Porusia (coming again) can mean from somewhere or to manifest or "to come into being" or "to be established". Mat 16:28
Jesus said that there were people there that would not experience death before He comes, meaning manifest.
3. Christ must remain in heaven until the time when everything will be restored as God promised. Acts 3:21
The enemy wants us to fear. Fear stands against faith and love.
We are chosen in Yahweh to redeem all things to Him.
4. Mat 11:13
The smallest in the next "epog" (time - don't know english word) is bigger as John the baptism.
We have the Spirit in us, and they didn't have the Holy Spirit.
Old Testament was law. It prophecied about the end time.
John come to introduce the new dispensation from Jesus Christ.
Everything about the Old Covenant shows to Jesus. All Old Covenant is fulfulled. It had been completed, fulfulled in Yashua.
New Testament started when Jesus rose up. It didn't start at the beginning of the gospels!!!!
In the New Covenant we are being lead by the Spirit.
Elijah and Moses are being fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the law and the prophets.
5. John 3: 12,13
Nobody in this epog taken to heaven
6. Op 11:15
Kingdoms to become Christs.
Jesus - only King.
1 Cor 15 : Jesus to present this entire Kingdom to the Father.
Bride to rule with Jesus on earth, He the head.
7. John 12:31,32 and Eph 4
Satan lost his hold over the children of light. On the cross the old man and old nature had been nailed.
Satan has no hold on you when you are in Christ.
He is already defeated. Already judged.
----
Jer 29:11
Fear of God being a manmade institution, and because of that the book is sealed or peoples eyes are sealed, because they still operate in manmade fear
-----
Some more points he made
1. The Bride is not the whole church
2. Jesus comes back for a triumphant bride who manifests the DNA of God
3. Malchesedec Priedthood
4. Not to heaven
5. Dragon - defeated
6. Bride is in Holy of Holies (other christians still in outercourt or holy place)
7. Predestination is not in terms of being saved, but in terms of being part of the Bride. Everybody can be saved, but Yahweh selects His bride
8. Cloud of witnesses
9. New Jerusalem is not physical resurrection of a place in the natural, physical Israels time has come to an end, it is now time for the Spiritual New Jerusalem, built with living stones to arise. The Bride.
------
Topic 1 : about Matthew 24 - the end time predictions.
1, Jesus said that all those things would come upon THAT generatiion, and it DID,
2. When will these things be and what is the sign of your coming (meaning manifestation).
3. It is the closing (end time) of one dispensation and the beginning of the next. The end of the world as it was then. The beginning of the New Covenant.
4. Son, moon and stars are symbols of authority. Authority had been lost.
5. He comes in the Cloud. Cloud of witnesses.
6. Learn from fig tree (fig tree is symbol of Israel). This generation ended before 70 After Christ.
"Religion is what is left after God has left the building".
-----
Topic 2 : Daniel 9
70 prophetic weeks (referred to as p.w. Hereafter) (490 years).
It is about his Jewish nations, that is what Daniel fasted about.
Each of the 7 things Jesus came to do, on the timeline
1. Artasata gives command to restore Jerusalem 457 BC
2. (7 p.w.) 49 years
Temple completed 408 BC
3. (62 p.w.) - 434 years
Jesus baptised
27 AC
4. (Half p.w.) - 3.5 years
Jesus crucified
30 AC
5. ( Half p.w.) - 3.5 years
Stoning of Stevan
34 AC
This adds to 70 prophetic weeks.
70x7 is the full measure of forgiveness
Physical children of Abraham had been REPLACED by the spiritual children of Abraham just as the spiritual circumsision of the heart had replaced the physical circumsision.
------
The rapture.
Proverbs 2:21
Righteous shall inherit the land.
Proverbs 10:30
Righteous shall not be moved
See also Psalm 37:9,10
Psalm 115:16
Heaven is for the Lord and earth is given for mankindm
John 17:15
Jesus prays that they will NOT be taken OUT of this world but that they will be delivered from evil
Dan 7:27
Rulership is given to the saints
The earth and the fullness thereof belongs to the Lord.
Romans 8
All creation cries out...manifestation of sons of God
Revelation 2:26-28
We must rule!
He who overcomes, rulership over nations.
Ps 27:27
Will forever dwell...
Mat 5:5
Meek will inherit the earth
Titus 2:13,11
John 14:1-4
2 Cor 5:2
1 John 4:12
1 Thes 4:13-18
Rapture : acts 8:29
He manifests.
Glorified body.
Blood out.
Vains are filled with light not blood.
Presence of God was with them..
To be raptured like Phillip - to be united with Him.
Nobody will take you from my hand (rapture)
See also
Jude 14:15
1 Thes 3:13
Mat 13:24-30
----
Topic 4 : Revelations
This is the Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST ( Rev 1:1)
Written before the book of John.
John didn't write seperate chapters about end time like other gospel writers, for it was already covered in his book Revelation.
Time is close Rev 22:10
Holy Spirit came and told them all they had to hear.
Nero was that AntiChrist
2 Peter 1:3
3: 7-13
Fire?
2 Peter 3
Your way of thinking can also burn.
Gal 4:3-9
Col 2:20
Old earth - old way of thinking.
Has to be destroyed with fire.
Dimension of His glory, Holy of Holies, is a new way of thinking.
Gen 8:21,22,4
Offer with fire.
1st offer in new epog (time dispensation).
Promise made.
Arc, on 7th month on 17th landed on mountain ararat.
It was the same day that Jesus rose from the dead.
And Ararat means "God reversed the curse"
Noah means rest.
Seminar 14 Nov 09 Tom Gouws
"Falsehood has an infinity of combinations, but truth has only one mode of being" J.J. Rousseau
7 Principles we need to understand first before we go into the teachings of end times. These concepts needs to be understood as foundations.
1. End time is not in the time we live now. It started when Jesus rose up from the dead. This is proved by 1 Cor 10:11
See also Gen 49:1, Eseg 38:16
See also Heb 1:1
2. The word in Greek for coming is "ergomai". Somebody coming on the cloud.
But it can mean somebody coming or going.
Paulus went up (ergomai) to heaven.
Porusia (coming again) can mean from somewhere or to manifest or "to come into being" or "to be established". Mat 16:28
Jesus said that there were people there that would not experience death before He comes, meaning manifest.
3. Christ must remain in heaven until the time when everything will be restored as God promised. Acts 3:21
The enemy wants us to fear. Fear stands against faith and love.
We are chosen in Yahweh to redeem all things to Him.
4. Mat 11:13
The smallest in the next "epog" (time - don't know english word) is bigger as John the baptism.
We have the Spirit in us, and they didn't have the Holy Spirit.
Old Testament was law. It prophecied about the end time.
John come to introduce the new dispensation from Jesus Christ.
Everything about the Old Covenant shows to Jesus. All Old Covenant is fulfulled. It had been completed, fulfulled in Yashua.
New Testament started when Jesus rose up. It didn't start at the beginning of the gospels!!!!
In the New Covenant we are being lead by the Spirit.
Elijah and Moses are being fulfilled in Jesus Christ, the law and the prophets.
5. John 3: 12,13
Nobody in this epog taken to heaven
6. Op 11:15
Kingdoms to become Christs.
Jesus - only King.
1 Cor 15 : Jesus to present this entire Kingdom to the Father.
Bride to rule with Jesus on earth, He the head.
7. John 12:31,32 and Eph 4
Satan lost his hold over the children of light. On the cross the old man and old nature had been nailed.
Satan has no hold on you when you are in Christ.
He is already defeated. Already judged.
----
Jer 29:11
Fear of God being a manmade institution, and because of that the book is sealed or peoples eyes are sealed, because they still operate in manmade fear
-----
Some more points he made
1. The Bride is not the whole church
2. Jesus comes back for a triumphant bride who manifests the DNA of God
3. Malchesedec Priedthood
4. Not to heaven
5. Dragon - defeated
6. Bride is in Holy of Holies (other christians still in outercourt or holy place)
7. Predestination is not in terms of being saved, but in terms of being part of the Bride. Everybody can be saved, but Yahweh selects His bride
8. Cloud of witnesses
9. New Jerusalem is not physical resurrection of a place in the natural, physical Israels time has come to an end, it is now time for the Spiritual New Jerusalem, built with living stones to arise. The Bride.
------
Topic 1 : about Matthew 24 - the end time predictions.
1, Jesus said that all those things would come upon THAT generatiion, and it DID,
2. When will these things be and what is the sign of your coming (meaning manifestation).
3. It is the closing (end time) of one dispensation and the beginning of the next. The end of the world as it was then. The beginning of the New Covenant.
4. Son, moon and stars are symbols of authority. Authority had been lost.
5. He comes in the Cloud. Cloud of witnesses.
6. Learn from fig tree (fig tree is symbol of Israel). This generation ended before 70 After Christ.
"Religion is what is left after God has left the building".
-----
Topic 2 : Daniel 9
70 prophetic weeks (referred to as p.w. Hereafter) (490 years).
It is about his Jewish nations, that is what Daniel fasted about.
Each of the 7 things Jesus came to do, on the timeline
1. Artasata gives command to restore Jerusalem 457 BC
2. (7 p.w.) 49 years
Temple completed 408 BC
3. (62 p.w.) - 434 years
Jesus baptised
27 AC
4. (Half p.w.) - 3.5 years
Jesus crucified
30 AC
5. ( Half p.w.) - 3.5 years
Stoning of Stevan
34 AC
This adds to 70 prophetic weeks.
70x7 is the full measure of forgiveness
Physical children of Abraham had been REPLACED by the spiritual children of Abraham just as the spiritual circumsision of the heart had replaced the physical circumsision.
------
The rapture.
Proverbs 2:21
Righteous shall inherit the land.
Proverbs 10:30
Righteous shall not be moved
See also Psalm 37:9,10
Psalm 115:16
Heaven is for the Lord and earth is given for mankindm
John 17:15
Jesus prays that they will NOT be taken OUT of this world but that they will be delivered from evil
Dan 7:27
Rulership is given to the saints
The earth and the fullness thereof belongs to the Lord.
Romans 8
All creation cries out...manifestation of sons of God
Revelation 2:26-28
We must rule!
He who overcomes, rulership over nations.
Ps 27:27
Will forever dwell...
Mat 5:5
Meek will inherit the earth
Titus 2:13,11
John 14:1-4
2 Cor 5:2
1 John 4:12
1 Thes 4:13-18
Rapture : acts 8:29
He manifests.
Glorified body.
Blood out.
Vains are filled with light not blood.
Presence of God was with them..
To be raptured like Phillip - to be united with Him.
Nobody will take you from my hand (rapture)
See also
Jude 14:15
1 Thes 3:13
Mat 13:24-30
----
Topic 4 : Revelations
This is the Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST ( Rev 1:1)
Written before the book of John.
John didn't write seperate chapters about end time like other gospel writers, for it was already covered in his book Revelation.
Time is close Rev 22:10
Holy Spirit came and told them all they had to hear.
Nero was that AntiChrist
2 Peter 1:3
3: 7-13
Fire?
2 Peter 3
Your way of thinking can also burn.
Gal 4:3-9
Col 2:20
Old earth - old way of thinking.
Has to be destroyed with fire.
Dimension of His glory, Holy of Holies, is a new way of thinking.
Gen 8:21,22,4
Offer with fire.
1st offer in new epog (time dispensation).
Promise made.
Arc, on 7th month on 17th landed on mountain ararat.
It was the same day that Jesus rose from the dead.
And Ararat means "God reversed the curse"
Noah means rest.
my conclusion
Through the experience I had with a cult group and also a family I am friends with that was rescued from an extreme cult group, the definition of a cult is simply this "Jesus plus..."
When anything is added as primary focus...then its a cult.
Jesus plus good works
Jesus plus religious rituals
Jesus plus .....anything....
And it could even be...I see now...
Jesus plus confessions.
Jesus alone is not enough. Childlike trust in Him is not enough. Listening to His voice moment by moment is not enough - you also need this and that discipline to practise in order to be okay....you also need to pray at least hour a day after you wake up...you also need to have this and that covering....you also need to practise diligently the discipline of positive confessions, Jesus alone is not enough, looking at Him is not enough, you need our formulas also..........that would be the kinda lines used...that would remind me of a cult.
Teachings of Christ is good to keep us in Truth yet. Loving Jesus is loving Truth. 2Thes 2:10 "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion..."
You can't love Jesus and not love Truth for He is the Truth. You can't love Jesus and not love His Word when He sends it.
So its not a matter of Jesus plus Truth, for Jesus is Truth.
But Jesus plus prayer for example, could be witchcraft when prayer and the specific type of prayer as a discipline becomes the focus and not Jesus.
And Jesus plus good works, could be witchcraft when good works and the specific type of "good works" as a discipline becomes the focus and not Jesus.
And Jesus plus confessions, could be witchcraft when this as a discipline becomes the focus and not Jesus.
Back to Christian mysticism. It is about
1. Prayer
2. Disciplines
2. Abstinence.
And if you ever get to read that article about eros spirituality vs agape faith, it shows exactly that.
Cult groups can be extremely spiritual. Angelic visitations and supernatural manifestations being intense. And always but always it is about the intense practice of some or a variety of Christian disciplines. In Christian Science it is about the practice of the discipline of confessions and positive thought in particular.
Jesus IS
The WAY
The TRUTH
And the LIFE
When we experience death in any area of our life, we know Jesus is the Life. In Him is life and only in Him.
Some people realize that, but they don't get it that He is also the way. Now instead of resting in Him and allowing Him to steer the way, whatever it may takes, He may instruct a fast, He may prompt a person to do some confessions and give a particular Word or promise from Scripture for the situation, He may require thanksgiving, He may require just waiting on Him and being still. He IS the way for every situation of death to come to life. And in being the WAY, He is also the TRUTH, where there is lies the light of His Truth will expose it as we lean on Him and Him only.
But now some people have seen how Jesus had instructed them once to worship when they were coming from death to life in a situation or condition. Now they built an altar of worship, and make of the discipline of worship "THE way".
Religion is what's left when God has left the building.
So now the follow the discipline expecting Jesus to come through as He did the first time. They have reduced Him to a formula and independently now want to get Him to do stuff that they want Him to do, instead of laying down all formulas and coming back to Jesus as THE WAY.
For another person when Jesus was The WAY for them in accessing life from a situation of death may have been that Jesus prompted them to do a specific Scriptural confession over and over.
Now they make a formula of THAT and now independantly of Jesus being the WAY they want to "make it happen" based on the method Jesus used last time.
And so it becomes a Jesus PLUS.
And then it has become a religious cult.
And they live from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, of formulas of good and evil and not of HIM.
When people live from the tree of knowledge of good and evil as described below it is about turning everything that is "evil" their view to what is "good" their view by the application of the discipline which they believe is "the WAY".
In Christian Science, a person that is suffering some discomfort of any kind may interpret this as "evil" based on his human understanding. Because he believes God to be "good" (from a humanistic perspective of what is good), he wants to "treat" the situation by using his "formula" of confession.
When Hezekiah got a Word that he would die from his sickness he judged the word as "evil" based on his human understanding (regardless whether it was a Word from God Himself). Because he believes he should only have "good" (from his perspective and mental frame), he needed to "treat" the situation by disciplines of prayer and continuous nagging at God.
Some people use the discipline of fasting, other the discipline of singing to God, other the discipline of doing good deeds, to "cure" situations from "evil" to "good".
But how can the human mind determine what is evil. Still today people think God's instruction to kill all the families of Canaanites was evil - from their humanism perspective. People see any discomfort as evil. Their perception of good is if I roll in the money and I have everything going my way. If I don't, it is "evil" and I want to grab at some "discipline" to "fix" the situation.
Christian mysticism is the same.
Any cult is the same.
More advanced cults try to use the "formulas" not only to "treat" their own conditions but also that of the "greater humanity". That's when you get groups doing mantras with the names of God for example over a war situation to bring peace.
Can't you see how confessions have become a "formula", just another type of "formula" to substitute Jesus as the way, so people can independantly change what they consider "evil" situations to "good".
Confession, worship, good deeds, prayer, meditation of the Word...all those things are wonderful, good, wholesome, when used in HIM, as an outflow of Him being the vine and we the branches and He prompts us to flow in that particular thing. That is all part of living of the Tree of life.
But to take one element and make of that an independent "discipline" that is when we get into witchcraft, into living from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil.
I know I speak Truth to you. I know that.
See also foundationsofchristianity.co.za/Universalism.htm which was the product that flowed after the loose notes jotted below was taken and then it kept expanding. But this I wrote above is my latest conclusion on the matter of Word of Faith movement.
When anything is added as primary focus...then its a cult.
Jesus plus good works
Jesus plus religious rituals
Jesus plus .....anything....
And it could even be...I see now...
Jesus plus confessions.
Jesus alone is not enough. Childlike trust in Him is not enough. Listening to His voice moment by moment is not enough - you also need this and that discipline to practise in order to be okay....you also need to pray at least hour a day after you wake up...you also need to have this and that covering....you also need to practise diligently the discipline of positive confessions, Jesus alone is not enough, looking at Him is not enough, you need our formulas also..........that would be the kinda lines used...that would remind me of a cult.
Teachings of Christ is good to keep us in Truth yet. Loving Jesus is loving Truth. 2Thes 2:10 "because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion..."
You can't love Jesus and not love Truth for He is the Truth. You can't love Jesus and not love His Word when He sends it.
So its not a matter of Jesus plus Truth, for Jesus is Truth.
But Jesus plus prayer for example, could be witchcraft when prayer and the specific type of prayer as a discipline becomes the focus and not Jesus.
And Jesus plus good works, could be witchcraft when good works and the specific type of "good works" as a discipline becomes the focus and not Jesus.
And Jesus plus confessions, could be witchcraft when this as a discipline becomes the focus and not Jesus.
Back to Christian mysticism. It is about
1. Prayer
2. Disciplines
2. Abstinence.
And if you ever get to read that article about eros spirituality vs agape faith, it shows exactly that.
Cult groups can be extremely spiritual. Angelic visitations and supernatural manifestations being intense. And always but always it is about the intense practice of some or a variety of Christian disciplines. In Christian Science it is about the practice of the discipline of confessions and positive thought in particular.
Jesus IS
The WAY
The TRUTH
And the LIFE
When we experience death in any area of our life, we know Jesus is the Life. In Him is life and only in Him.
Some people realize that, but they don't get it that He is also the way. Now instead of resting in Him and allowing Him to steer the way, whatever it may takes, He may instruct a fast, He may prompt a person to do some confessions and give a particular Word or promise from Scripture for the situation, He may require thanksgiving, He may require just waiting on Him and being still. He IS the way for every situation of death to come to life. And in being the WAY, He is also the TRUTH, where there is lies the light of His Truth will expose it as we lean on Him and Him only.
But now some people have seen how Jesus had instructed them once to worship when they were coming from death to life in a situation or condition. Now they built an altar of worship, and make of the discipline of worship "THE way".
Religion is what's left when God has left the building.
So now the follow the discipline expecting Jesus to come through as He did the first time. They have reduced Him to a formula and independently now want to get Him to do stuff that they want Him to do, instead of laying down all formulas and coming back to Jesus as THE WAY.
For another person when Jesus was The WAY for them in accessing life from a situation of death may have been that Jesus prompted them to do a specific Scriptural confession over and over.
Now they make a formula of THAT and now independantly of Jesus being the WAY they want to "make it happen" based on the method Jesus used last time.
And so it becomes a Jesus PLUS.
And then it has become a religious cult.
And they live from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, of formulas of good and evil and not of HIM.
When people live from the tree of knowledge of good and evil as described below it is about turning everything that is "evil" their view to what is "good" their view by the application of the discipline which they believe is "the WAY".
In Christian Science, a person that is suffering some discomfort of any kind may interpret this as "evil" based on his human understanding. Because he believes God to be "good" (from a humanistic perspective of what is good), he wants to "treat" the situation by using his "formula" of confession.
When Hezekiah got a Word that he would die from his sickness he judged the word as "evil" based on his human understanding (regardless whether it was a Word from God Himself). Because he believes he should only have "good" (from his perspective and mental frame), he needed to "treat" the situation by disciplines of prayer and continuous nagging at God.
Some people use the discipline of fasting, other the discipline of singing to God, other the discipline of doing good deeds, to "cure" situations from "evil" to "good".
But how can the human mind determine what is evil. Still today people think God's instruction to kill all the families of Canaanites was evil - from their humanism perspective. People see any discomfort as evil. Their perception of good is if I roll in the money and I have everything going my way. If I don't, it is "evil" and I want to grab at some "discipline" to "fix" the situation.
Christian mysticism is the same.
Any cult is the same.
More advanced cults try to use the "formulas" not only to "treat" their own conditions but also that of the "greater humanity". That's when you get groups doing mantras with the names of God for example over a war situation to bring peace.
Can't you see how confessions have become a "formula", just another type of "formula" to substitute Jesus as the way, so people can independantly change what they consider "evil" situations to "good".
Confession, worship, good deeds, prayer, meditation of the Word...all those things are wonderful, good, wholesome, when used in HIM, as an outflow of Him being the vine and we the branches and He prompts us to flow in that particular thing. That is all part of living of the Tree of life.
But to take one element and make of that an independent "discipline" that is when we get into witchcraft, into living from the Tree of knowledge of good and evil.
I know I speak Truth to you. I know that.
See also foundationsofchristianity.co.za/Universalism.htm which was the product that flowed after the loose notes jotted below was taken and then it kept expanding. But this I wrote above is my latest conclusion on the matter of Word of Faith movement.
Monday 4 January 2010
The big picture
Since I am so interested in the big picture and the bigger plan, the very first verses Paul spoke after he greeted everybody warmly.
V2 onwards
To put this in my own words:
Grace and peace to us
Blessing and praise to God
God picked us in Christ, put us in Christ, and blessed us with everything possible,
so we could BE a certain way before Him in love.
This state of BEING is holiness, wholeness, blamelessness.
(V5) He wanted us to be this way for He foreordained us to be adopted as His own children, .
(Implying to me, to be His very own children He wanted us to be of His very own kind, therefore he wanted to do whatever it takes, to bring us to this state of being, and part of the process to bring us to this state, was that He blessed us with everything possible, for is not the goodness of God that leads us to repentance?)
so we may be to the praise of His glorious grace
(Implying that he wanted us to be his very own children, for the ultimate purpose of it being to the praise of His glorious grace)
(V6) We are thus redeemed to this original purpose through the blood.
in accordance with this generous glorious grace.
(10) And God planned for the maturity of the times,
the climax of the ages,
to unify all things
and head them up in Christ
(all things in heaven and on the earth)
(Implying, that is what this plan is ultimately working towards)
-------
Thus
The purpose of it all is for the praise of His glorious grace
The ultimate result at the climax of the ages will be all unified in Christ in heaven and earth
In the meanwhile He has foreordained sons that will play an important role in this bringing all into alignment.
These sons are to BE before Him in love in a certain state of BEING
This transformation of BEING who we are meant to be is made possible through the blood,
But is brought about by the receiving of all the blessings that had been released to us in the spiritual realm (by faith).
The result of the transformation of BEING, is that we will be totally holy and blameless before God, as his very own sons, in the image of our Father. (Implying wholeness in every part of us, and being seperated unto Him completely).
Therefore it is VERY important that we understand what these blessings are that had been released to us and how to receive them, for they will result in the transformation of BEING once we receive His gracious gifts. For even the more we receive, the more His glorious grace is being glorified. And that is after all, the purpose of it all.
That is how I see the big picture.
Reply:
V2 onwards
To put this in my own words:
Grace and peace to us
Blessing and praise to God
God picked us in Christ, put us in Christ, and blessed us with everything possible,
so we could BE a certain way before Him in love.
This state of BEING is holiness, wholeness, blamelessness.
(V5) He wanted us to be this way for He foreordained us to be adopted as His own children, .
(Implying to me, to be His very own children He wanted us to be of His very own kind, therefore he wanted to do whatever it takes, to bring us to this state of being, and part of the process to bring us to this state, was that He blessed us with everything possible, for is not the goodness of God that leads us to repentance?)
so we may be to the praise of His glorious grace
(Implying that he wanted us to be his very own children, for the ultimate purpose of it being to the praise of His glorious grace)
(V6) We are thus redeemed to this original purpose through the blood.
in accordance with this generous glorious grace.
(10) And God planned for the maturity of the times,
the climax of the ages,
to unify all things
and head them up in Christ
(all things in heaven and on the earth)
(Implying, that is what this plan is ultimately working towards)
-------
Thus
The purpose of it all is for the praise of His glorious grace
The ultimate result at the climax of the ages will be all unified in Christ in heaven and earth
In the meanwhile He has foreordained sons that will play an important role in this bringing all into alignment.
These sons are to BE before Him in love in a certain state of BEING
This transformation of BEING who we are meant to be is made possible through the blood,
But is brought about by the receiving of all the blessings that had been released to us in the spiritual realm (by faith).
The result of the transformation of BEING, is that we will be totally holy and blameless before God, as his very own sons, in the image of our Father. (Implying wholeness in every part of us, and being seperated unto Him completely).
Therefore it is VERY important that we understand what these blessings are that had been released to us and how to receive them, for they will result in the transformation of BEING once we receive His gracious gifts. For even the more we receive, the more His glorious grace is being glorified. And that is after all, the purpose of it all.
That is how I see the big picture.
Reply:
Sunday 3 January 2010
Summary of the Gospel
Question:
How would you summarize the message of the bible in one page, that could bring it all together as a whole?
Reply:
1John 3:14-24
Reply back:
Do you consider this the summary of the Gospel?
What about Eph 2:8-10?
Reply:
ou asked about a summary of the entire Bible. If I were to put up something approximating what the Jews put on their doors with a piece of Scripture in it, I'd use 1John 3:14-24 rather than the traditional passage from the Torah. If I had to summarize the entire Bible even more briefly, I'd use Colossians 3:12-17. I don't know of a right or wrong answer to your question. It's just how I'd do it. ---
Reply back:
This is what is so baffling to me....
My heart is so drawn to love...I am filled with love and compassion....and that is probably the main reason I got drawn into new age many many years ago, because I just couldn't understand how the God I love could send people for all eternity to a tormenting hell, for not understanding that they have to do a sinners prayer and trying to find and reach Him in other ways.
God then pulled me out of there before I got in too deep.
But then with this Jakob Lorber, it was the love again that got me in. All the books is centred around the theme of love. Of doing the works of Jesus. Of loving.
This Jakob Lorber was believed to be a prophet, speaking the words of Jesus, he was speaking in the first person, as if Jesus is speaking, explaining scriptures and giving details, many details about the book of John.
And it was from a Universalism perspective.
It had teachings about love so detailed as I have never heard anywhere, and about laying down ones life. And the spiritual content was so high.
That was why it was so appealing to me.
But in the end, Jesus showed me, that the foundations is wrong, the starting point is wrong and that it is not His books. (Nor words)
And then brought me back to grace and truth. Grace through faith.
For those people believe in Jesus. They believe the Jesus from Lorber is the same Jesus from the bible. Lorber even explains the crucifixion later....so they don't deny it. Only problem is they focus on love rather than on the cross. And they do strive to keep His words and to love with every fibre in their being.
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/05/eros_spirituality_vs_agape_fai.php
This article hits the nail on the head I think with regards to the type of love the scripture demands vs the type of love preached by these new spiritualities, and deceiving spirits.
And that makes me want just to run deeper into grace. More grace. I cannot even love if He doesn't help me and do it through me.
R
How would you summarize the message of the bible in one page, that could bring it all together as a whole?
Reply:
1John 3:14-24
Reply back:
Do you consider this the summary of the Gospel?
What about Eph 2:8-10?
Reply:
ou asked about a summary of the entire Bible. If I were to put up something approximating what the Jews put on their doors with a piece of Scripture in it, I'd use 1John 3:14-24 rather than the traditional passage from the Torah. If I had to summarize the entire Bible even more briefly, I'd use Colossians 3:12-17. I don't know of a right or wrong answer to your question. It's just how I'd do it. ---
Reply back:
This is what is so baffling to me....
My heart is so drawn to love...I am filled with love and compassion....and that is probably the main reason I got drawn into new age many many years ago, because I just couldn't understand how the God I love could send people for all eternity to a tormenting hell, for not understanding that they have to do a sinners prayer and trying to find and reach Him in other ways.
God then pulled me out of there before I got in too deep.
But then with this Jakob Lorber, it was the love again that got me in. All the books is centred around the theme of love. Of doing the works of Jesus. Of loving.
This Jakob Lorber was believed to be a prophet, speaking the words of Jesus, he was speaking in the first person, as if Jesus is speaking, explaining scriptures and giving details, many details about the book of John.
And it was from a Universalism perspective.
It had teachings about love so detailed as I have never heard anywhere, and about laying down ones life. And the spiritual content was so high.
That was why it was so appealing to me.
But in the end, Jesus showed me, that the foundations is wrong, the starting point is wrong and that it is not His books. (Nor words)
And then brought me back to grace and truth. Grace through faith.
For those people believe in Jesus. They believe the Jesus from Lorber is the same Jesus from the bible. Lorber even explains the crucifixion later....so they don't deny it. Only problem is they focus on love rather than on the cross. And they do strive to keep His words and to love with every fibre in their being.
http://www.reformationtheology.com/2006/05/eros_spirituality_vs_agape_fai.php
This article hits the nail on the head I think with regards to the type of love the scripture demands vs the type of love preached by these new spiritualities, and deceiving spirits.
And that makes me want just to run deeper into grace. More grace. I cannot even love if He doesn't help me and do it through me.
R
Immortality
Question:
I'm becoming increasingly persuaded that our immortality and our reign a thousand years has been available for 2,000yrs if we'd pursued the Word of Faith that firmly. Now, whether it's absolutely always been available or whether the Word's leaning towards disclosing more and more along those lines towards me BECAUSE it's His timing, I couldn't even begin to tell you. I believe a New Testament person's lifespan has potentially always been a thousand years, but with the big emphasis upon martyrdom and all of the religious stuff that arose about heaven, it's not too hard to connect the dots on why either nobody in previous generations has ever entered into that, or because of persecution and avoiding publicity about it, they've simply kept a lid on it. As far as partial preterism, or the idea that many of these prophesied events met their fulfillment in 70AD, in the years leading up to that, or within a century or two of that, I'm very acquainted with that view and do believe many New Testament passages have their fulfillment in that. I'm tempted to believe the whole book of Revelation may perhaps have been fulfilled in the 1st century and that we need to look to 2Peter, the book of Zechariah, Hosea, and other passages of Scripture for what's yet to come to pass, but I'm still rethinking the book of Revelation and am not dogmatic about that yet without typing up a few more loose ends either for or against that view. As far as the letters that begin the book of Revelation, I don't believe they necessarily reflect an overview of Church history to the time of the end because none of 'em reflect a fully matured Ephesians 4 Church. To me, they're like the book of Acts or the issues dealt with in 1Corinthians to where it having fulfillment doesn't mean it's irrelevant to Christian doctrine. None of those letters that begin Revelation show us a Romans 8 "manifestation of the sons of God" chapter of human history that we know from too many other things in the Scriptures must yet happen.
I'm becoming increasingly persuaded that our immortality and our reign a thousand years has been available for 2,000yrs if we'd pursued the Word of Faith that firmly. Now, whether it's absolutely always been available or whether the Word's leaning towards disclosing more and more along those lines towards me BECAUSE it's His timing, I couldn't even begin to tell you. I believe a New Testament person's lifespan has potentially always been a thousand years, but with the big emphasis upon martyrdom and all of the religious stuff that arose about heaven, it's not too hard to connect the dots on why either nobody in previous generations has ever entered into that, or because of persecution and avoiding publicity about it, they've simply kept a lid on it. As far as partial preterism, or the idea that many of these prophesied events met their fulfillment in 70AD, in the years leading up to that, or within a century or two of that, I'm very acquainted with that view and do believe many New Testament passages have their fulfillment in that. I'm tempted to believe the whole book of Revelation may perhaps have been fulfilled in the 1st century and that we need to look to 2Peter, the book of Zechariah, Hosea, and other passages of Scripture for what's yet to come to pass, but I'm still rethinking the book of Revelation and am not dogmatic about that yet without typing up a few more loose ends either for or against that view. As far as the letters that begin the book of Revelation, I don't believe they necessarily reflect an overview of Church history to the time of the end because none of 'em reflect a fully matured Ephesians 4 Church. To me, they're like the book of Acts or the issues dealt with in 1Corinthians to where it having fulfillment doesn't mean it's irrelevant to Christian doctrine. None of those letters that begin Revelation show us a Romans 8 "manifestation of the sons of God" chapter of human history that we know from too many other things in the Scriptures must yet happen.
The cloud of witnesses - flowing later into questions about "the Word"
Question:
There seems to be some interesting teaching going on lately about the cloud of witnesses.Some testify encounters with people from the cloud, and many just talk about an awareness of the cloud that is constantly around us.Some preach that one don't go to heaven when you die, but you go to be with the cloud, which is in the heavenlies, yet all around us.Do you have more insight about this?
Answer:
I've got a lot of experience with the cloud of His glory, but had never thought before I saw this email from you that it's perhaps the same cloud as the cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrews. I genuinely have no idea, yet, about what you're asking me, nor any opinion about it one way or the other. Something for me to think about, though, that when that cloud's present in various charismatic services, perhaps it's an agreement between earth and heaven going on where they're standing in agreement with us for His redemptive will to be carried out and from the testimony of those two witnesses, those that are still corporeal and those in that cloud, then Father brings to pass extra special things in the behalf of that agreement, perhaps. Uncertain. Just something, whether intentional or unintentional in this email of yours gave me a whole new area to think through in the Scriptures for what the Scriptures have to say about it. As far as the location of heaven, I wouldn't necessarily go that far, unless there's a Scripture that I run across that ties it together as either the location of the departed or the portal to where they're at.
Reply:
Jesus sais in the book of John while speaking to Nicodemus that nobody has ascended to heaven, except Himself, who came down from heaven.
Where was Elijah then?
That's where the conclusion that he is in the cloud.
Reply back:
Elijah was in heaven. Lord Jesus at that time was the only one that had been transfigured. It was talking about the being caught up to heaven that He experienced when He received honor and glory from Father in His transfiguration according to the 4th account of the transfiguration in the New Testament. He was citing His authority over the Rabbis. John's writings are a bit different from some of the rest of the New Testament. He makes not having seen God a bad thing in 3John 11 and elsewhere, but then speaks it matter of factly about those he's speaking to elsewhere that none of them had ever seen God in 1John 4:12. This is some of the tricky language of the New Testament where you wind up having to really dig for what He's talking about and about seeing Him in the Written Word and through the life that the Written Word has been "imprinted upon."
Reply:
Elijah was in heaven. Lord Jesus at that time was the only one that had been transfigured. It was talking about the being caught up to heaven that He experienced when He received honor and glory from Father in His transfiguration according to the 4th account of the transfiguration in the New Testament. He was citing His authority over the Rabbis. John's writings are a bit different from some of the rest of the New Testament. He makes not having seen God a bad thing in 3John 11 and elsewhere, but then speaks it matter of factly about those he's speaking to elsewhere that none of them had ever seen God in 1John 4:12. This is some of the tricky language of the New Testament where you wind up having to really dig for what He's talking about and about seeing Him in the Written Word and through the life that the Written Word has been "imprinted upon."
Reply back:
Why is there such tricky things in the New Testament.
If God wants to make Himself known to us, as He wants us to have eternal life, why not make it easier on us to understand His heart, His Word and to see Him and hear Him?
Reply:
The epistles of the New Testament were essentially follow-up letters to congregations that had already been established and who had already heard hours and hours of teaching and preaching along those lines, so since we weren't there for the weeks, months, and in a few cases years of discipleship straight from the Apostles, then we're sorta having to prayerfully work through both testaments to put back together what was being said by the Apostles in the New Testament. They didn't know, initially, that they were writing the New Testament. These were ministry letters being sent out, sometimes from jail so that the availability of writing materials may have additionally lent to a type of understood short hand where you'd need the rest of the New Testament and what Lord Jesus taught to put it all together.
Reply back:
But surely all Scriptures are given by God and are precisely the way they should be? So surely we can't put the blame on them or the circumstances for being vague at places?
Also, when talking about the Written Word : is there more authority in the words of the bible than in a personal Word God gives you
And when you are filled with the Spirit and the Word, aren't you then the Word becoming flesh, and how does that differ when I then meditate upon what you write me vs meditating on bible scripture?
Reply:
That's true, but 2Corinthians 13 and 1John 4 and other passages of Scripture indicate that there are tests you can give any spirit that's supposedly speaking to someone 'cause the Bible warns that there are many spirits out there saying stuff, not just the Spirit of God. The Bible says in the book of Acts that the Bereans were the absolute best crowd that St. Paul ever preached to. They didn't believe a thing he said at face value without searching the Scriptures DAILY to see if what he said was true.
.
Reply:
There seems to be some interesting teaching going on lately about the cloud of witnesses.Some testify encounters with people from the cloud, and many just talk about an awareness of the cloud that is constantly around us.Some preach that one don't go to heaven when you die, but you go to be with the cloud, which is in the heavenlies, yet all around us.Do you have more insight about this?
Answer:
I've got a lot of experience with the cloud of His glory, but had never thought before I saw this email from you that it's perhaps the same cloud as the cloud of witnesses mentioned in Hebrews. I genuinely have no idea, yet, about what you're asking me, nor any opinion about it one way or the other. Something for me to think about, though, that when that cloud's present in various charismatic services, perhaps it's an agreement between earth and heaven going on where they're standing in agreement with us for His redemptive will to be carried out and from the testimony of those two witnesses, those that are still corporeal and those in that cloud, then Father brings to pass extra special things in the behalf of that agreement, perhaps. Uncertain. Just something, whether intentional or unintentional in this email of yours gave me a whole new area to think through in the Scriptures for what the Scriptures have to say about it. As far as the location of heaven, I wouldn't necessarily go that far, unless there's a Scripture that I run across that ties it together as either the location of the departed or the portal to where they're at.
Reply:
Jesus sais in the book of John while speaking to Nicodemus that nobody has ascended to heaven, except Himself, who came down from heaven.
Where was Elijah then?
That's where the conclusion that he is in the cloud.
Reply back:
Elijah was in heaven. Lord Jesus at that time was the only one that had been transfigured. It was talking about the being caught up to heaven that He experienced when He received honor and glory from Father in His transfiguration according to the 4th account of the transfiguration in the New Testament. He was citing His authority over the Rabbis. John's writings are a bit different from some of the rest of the New Testament. He makes not having seen God a bad thing in 3John 11 and elsewhere, but then speaks it matter of factly about those he's speaking to elsewhere that none of them had ever seen God in 1John 4:12. This is some of the tricky language of the New Testament where you wind up having to really dig for what He's talking about and about seeing Him in the Written Word and through the life that the Written Word has been "imprinted upon."
Reply:
Elijah was in heaven. Lord Jesus at that time was the only one that had been transfigured. It was talking about the being caught up to heaven that He experienced when He received honor and glory from Father in His transfiguration according to the 4th account of the transfiguration in the New Testament. He was citing His authority over the Rabbis. John's writings are a bit different from some of the rest of the New Testament. He makes not having seen God a bad thing in 3John 11 and elsewhere, but then speaks it matter of factly about those he's speaking to elsewhere that none of them had ever seen God in 1John 4:12. This is some of the tricky language of the New Testament where you wind up having to really dig for what He's talking about and about seeing Him in the Written Word and through the life that the Written Word has been "imprinted upon."
Reply back:
Why is there such tricky things in the New Testament.
If God wants to make Himself known to us, as He wants us to have eternal life, why not make it easier on us to understand His heart, His Word and to see Him and hear Him?
Reply:
The epistles of the New Testament were essentially follow-up letters to congregations that had already been established and who had already heard hours and hours of teaching and preaching along those lines, so since we weren't there for the weeks, months, and in a few cases years of discipleship straight from the Apostles, then we're sorta having to prayerfully work through both testaments to put back together what was being said by the Apostles in the New Testament. They didn't know, initially, that they were writing the New Testament. These were ministry letters being sent out, sometimes from jail so that the availability of writing materials may have additionally lent to a type of understood short hand where you'd need the rest of the New Testament and what Lord Jesus taught to put it all together.
Reply back:
But surely all Scriptures are given by God and are precisely the way they should be? So surely we can't put the blame on them or the circumstances for being vague at places?
Also, when talking about the Written Word : is there more authority in the words of the bible than in a personal Word God gives you
And when you are filled with the Spirit and the Word, aren't you then the Word becoming flesh, and how does that differ when I then meditate upon what you write me vs meditating on bible scripture?
Reply:
That's true, but 2Corinthians 13 and 1John 4 and other passages of Scripture indicate that there are tests you can give any spirit that's supposedly speaking to someone 'cause the Bible warns that there are many spirits out there saying stuff, not just the Spirit of God. The Bible says in the book of Acts that the Bereans were the absolute best crowd that St. Paul ever preached to. They didn't believe a thing he said at face value without searching the Scriptures DAILY to see if what he said was true.
.
Reply:
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